Alternet: The Eight Most Absurd Excuses for Trying to Defeat Legal Pot

NORML Outreach Coordinator and AudioStash producer extraordinaire Russ Belville has an excellent commentary on Alternet.org today deconstructing several of the myths purported by those opposed to California’s Prop. 19 (and cannabis legalization in general).

Here are the myths:

The Eight Most Absurd Excuses for Trying to Defeat Legal Pot
via Alternet.org

8. The federal government will pull all of its contracts with California businesses because they won’t be able to drug test employees!

7. Legalizing marijuana for healthy people will end medical marijuana for sick people!

6. Legalizing marijuana will never raise any money because the social costs would outweigh any fiscal benefits… look at alcohol and tobacco!

5. Big Tobacco will buy up great huge tracts of land in Northern California and mass produce lousy joints pumped full of toxic addictive chemicals!

4. Today’s pot is fourteen times more powerful than Sixties weed and will lead to more crack babies!

3. People who smoke marijuana in the same apartment building as a child will be arrested! (Not that your landlord will let you grow pot anyway.)

2. Legally home-grown marijuana will lead to outbreaks of toxic deadly molds!

1. Workplaces would be overrun by workers smoking marijuana on the job!

Read Russ’ comprehensive rebuttals to these claims here.

You can also read Russ’ word-for-word analysis of Prop. 19 here. The TaxCannabis.org website also has an excellent and comprehensive FAQ section here.

50 thoughts

  1. 8 first thing is if the feds pull from California that would be great let’s shrink federal govt.
    7 I’m glad that they support medical marijuana.
    6 Obviously these people have only met the worst case exception to pot abuse.
    5 finally big tobacco will undercut big mafia
    4 thanks for the advertisement
    3 4th amendment rights
    2 not if you cant move a shitty product
    1 productivity will be up

  2. Marijuana Prohibitionist are supported by stupid myths. They stop using health and scientific facts, because it is not in their favor.

  3. First of all,all those excuses are BS,cannabis SHOULD be legal since the start of time.I live in Oregon and im getting the word out and fully supporting Prop.19,Ive gotten hate e-mails,and lectures from people i don’t even know telling me whats wrong with me,why am i doing this?I tell you why,cause once California legalizes and taxes cannabis,Oregon is most likely to be next and the revenue from the tax of cannabis would dramatically improve this economy.Although the sale age would be 21 just like alcohol doesn’t mean the tax money can’t go towards school’s and children programs that this country desperately needs.That and it would cut down on lumber and bring in new resources that we also desperately need,and it would also most likely bring this country out the HUGE debt it’s in,obviously the government doesn’t realize this.What we need is a government official of some sort that does smoke or somehow uses cannabis,so other officials will listen to him/her cause they don’t want to fully listen to the public,but they’re fully willing to listen to other officials.Thank you.

  4. NORML, you guys need to stop posting all the anti-prop19 prop19aganda on your site. It’s just showing the propaganda to more people. You need to start posting the PRO prop 19 prop19aganda. Start educating people about the rebuttals so when they DO see the bad propaganda on TV they can tell their friends about how it’s BS.
    We’re tired of reading the lies, NORML, tell us the good things.

  5. Those are all sad ass excuses because people are smoking now,an i dont know of anyone that smokes on the job, but i do know a few that after NOTE: AFTER work, they smoke a bowl or a fatty

  6. HA HA HA Smoking on the job….people do it now. Even at the machine shop I used to work at before starting school! Evey break and before work even began HA HA HA! Silly government, you can’t lie to us…we are smarter than you! HA HA HA

  7. The plant and the growing and smoking of the plant should be legal, just as it is to grow a tomatoe.
    It is the pharmacutical companies that are backing the war against it.
    If it were legal “They” would not have as many people “hooked on” their “little helpers”.
    Anyone who had done any reading, research, or, God forbid, tried the stuff, knows that it is the best for, depression, sleeplessness, etc.
    The only reason it makes people “paranoid” is because it is “illegal”.
    If it can be legal in any state, it should be legal in all states.
    I have always enjoyed a bit of herb.
    Power to the People! Smoke that Peace Pipe, Baby!

  8. This law would not prevent a cannabis-opposed business owner (whether for purposes of federal grants or otherwise) from prohibiting the possession of marijuana at work any more than current laws prevent a business owner from banning alcohol or tobacco at work.

  9. This law would not prevent a cannabis-opposed business owner (whether for purposes of federal grants or otherwise) from prohibiting the possession of marijuana at work any more than current laws prevent a business owner from banning alcohol or tobacco at work. that’s the real answer to red herring #1

  10. It is amazing how this plant has inspired such paranoia in those who don’t use it. And now some users are exhibiting irrational fear of this important step to full legalization. It’s just plain weird.

    The only way to know the effects of legalization is to actually and fully legalize it. Soon after that happy day even the detractors will be wondering what all the fuss was about and why we waited so long to cash in on the many medical, industrial, and spiritual benefits of cannabis.

  11. I tried to say it yesterday– I’ll try again today. I want to see more stuff like this. The use of exclamation points is awesome.

    It is NOT enough to be right, you need to SHOW PEOPLE how stupid the opposition is.

  12. 8)Maybe its time for employers to cut those apron strings and stand on thier own. Time to watch government shrink for once.

    7) Imagine them saying this in the 30’s:Legalizing Alcohol for healthy people will end medical Alcohol for sick people!
    Nope, that does jive either.

    6)Alcohol kills 400,000 a year? Tobacco kills 100,000 a year? Cannabis kills … oh ya ZERO every year! At this point, any’social’costs of cannabis IS already here and….we are collecting ZERO taxes on it.

    5)Well if the tobacco companies do spike ‘THIER’ brand, dont buy THEIR brand, and more thatn that, grow your OWN brand. (Whos gonna trust big tobacco any way?)

    4)Ok so in the 60’s you smoked two joints to get high. Today you would take two puffs…DUH! Like beer and whiskey.

    3)Childern shouldnt be around anyway, if you get caught doing it , its not different than giving them alcohol. It should be illegal to provide in any way to a minor.(You can grow cannabis with out anyone knowing, it gets done everyday in America.)

    2)Statistic show that many homes already have toxic molds from other sources.

    1)No, everyone wouldnt be high at work, you would get fired just as anyone being drunk. Let people be adults, if they cant be, send them packing.

    Now to work on that top ten list for why prohibition should end,like many government policies and departments.

  13. to fivi#5
    i find it a benefit for norml to show all the propaganda because then, they can show people who dont know the fact supported truth. to compare their silly, bullshit excuse with fact should show people who want to know the truth about the real reasons our government wants to keep it illegal. with that, they havent a respectable leg to stand on.how can you compare honey to a lemon if you have no lemon……

  14. the other big thing is the employment issue….i understand companies want their people sober because, we do work for them an they have the right….that being said, all they have to do is finish the saliva test to show wether or not cannabis is active in ones system (like they do alcohol) and, hit them with a swab at the door when we walk in to work….when ever the hell they want.i certainly would welcome that because, i can go home to my private world to enjoy. if your smart…you will have ceased consuming cannabis last evening and, will be clear for work the next day…if your stupid…YOUR FIRED…seems that simple to me..if they could just finish setting up those parameters….i am willing to bet that many of us who cannot consume because of present workplace testing parameters would be overjoyed with this type of testing and very willing to comply. can i get an amen?……peace to you all.

  15. Was there really a need to rebut all or any of these ?

    They appear to have been conceptualized by a 3rd grader, I mean government body.

  16. I especially like #4 and #6
    .
    There is actually research that shows that the average added medical expense from using cannabis is about 1/20th of the medical costs of alcohol and as the drug czar pointed out that marijuana was the #1 drug reported to the emergency room at check in,what he did not say was that marijuana was never reported as the cause of the patient being there.

    He got the statistic from the questions asked of every patient concerning what drugs they were on so the doctor would not cause harm by prescribing a medicine that would cause a reaction from drugs already in the patients bloodstream.

    When marijuana is stronger people smoke less of it,and since marijuana is non-toxic,no matter how strong it is,the reduced amount of smoking would have to decrease any harm that it might cause to the users lungs.

    Again,the ONDCP has turned the truth around trying to convince people how dangerous marijuana is because it is stronger while ignoring the health benefits of it being stronger and people smoking less of it.
    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
    16. Marijuana, in its natural form, is one of the safest
    therapeutically active substances known to man. By any measure of rational analysis marijuana can be safely used within a supervised routine of medical care. Federal Judge,Francis Young after a 2 1/ year study on medical marijuana,which then DEA Administrator Michelle Lieinghard promptly ignored.
    Page 57/58

    http://www.druglibrary.org/olsen/medical/young/young4.html

    Based upon the facts established in this record and set out above one must reasonably conclude that there is accepted safety for use of marijuana under medical supervision. To conclude otherwise, on this record, would be unreasonable, arbitrary and capricious. Page 66

  17. @Fivi:

    People need to know what they’re fighting against in order to fight it. They need to understand what is wrong about current legislation in order to fix it.

  18. To understand and to defeat your opponent is to expose their lies to the public. Marijuana prohibition is real and it is destroying freedom by making everyone criminals. If you are not a criminal then why are you being treated, threaten, and tested as one?

    Please don’t censor the bad news!

  19. …. but , but , but NO marijuana should be allowded near schools . Only our ” safe ” Pharmacies are allowded . These are the same Companies who are spending millions to snuff out Prop. 19 .

    OxyContin stolen at gunpoint from Henderson Center pharmacy in Eureka
    Allison White/The Times-Standard
    Posted: 08/19/2010 06:09:53 AM PDT

    Redwood Pharmacies in Eureka was reportedly robbed at gunpoint Wednesday afternoon for its stock of the narcotic OxyContin.

    The Eureka Police Department responded to the Henderson Center pharmacy on F Street at about 3 p.m. for reports of an armed robbery. After pointing a handgun at the clerk, the suspect ran out of the store, in back of the building and down the alley behind it, according to the EPD. Police are investigating whether this latest OxyContin robbery is related to others committed in the Eureka area.

    The suspect was described as a white male adult in baggy blue pants and a gray shirt, about 5 feet 8 inches tall. According to police at the scene, he “went straight for the Oxys” before running off.

    EPD officers temporarily shut down the store while they investigated the scene and collected evidence.

    Pharmacy over-the-counter manager Peggy Whitney said a co-worker alerted her when the robber entered the store with a black cloth covering most of his face. Whitney has worked at the Eureka pharmacy for eight years.

    ”That was the scariest thing I’ve ever been through,” she said.

    Whitney said she ran in back to tell the pharmacist they were being robbed, and when she turned around, the man was behind her.

    ”He said, ‘I just want the OxyContin and I’ll be out of here quick,’” Whitney said.

    All the employees, stunned and scared, did not respond, so he repeated himself. One employee pointed out
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    the cupboard the drugs were in, and when he turned around, Whitney ran past him into the office to call 911.

    ”He was so friendly about it — it was so weird,” Whitney said. “He looked as if he was probably just as scared as we were.”

    Whitney said he took the 40 mg and 80 mg doses of OxyContin from their stock and promptly left the pharmacy. Whitney said she and others think it may be the same man who committed other armed OxyContin robberies, She said that she talked with employees from Lima’s Professional Pharmacy, which was robbed last week, and the description of the suspect seemed similar, especially his blue eyes.

    Although the store was closed during the police investigation, Redwood Pharmacies continued business as usual afterwards. Employees were given the option of going home after the incident, but everyone continued their shift.

    ”It’s best to just get back on the horse,” Whitney said.

    This latest robbery marks the fourth in the Eureka area targeting pharmacies carrying OxyContin. Lima’s Professional Pharmacy was robbed last week of about $2,000 worth of the narcotic, according to the Humboldt County Sheriff’s Office. Cloney’s Prescription Pharmacy was robbed twice in the same week at gunpoint in late April.

    Cloney’s reportedly stopped carrying OxyContin to help ensure the safety of its employees.

    Whitney said she is unsure if they will continue to carry the medication, but said that “our customers have a need for it.” The narcotic helps those with chronic pain function and enjoy life, she said.

    Anyone with information regarding this incident or who knows the suspect’s identity is urged to contact Detective Ron Harpham at 441-4305

  20. The only reason California would approve of Prop. 19 is for the sake of other states. I don’t get it. I live in Georgia. Herb is ILLEGAL. Why not, if you’re in Calif., get a card?!

    I fear approval will only serve as a short time supply side for the states where it’s illegal (export business what it is). Lont-term “abuse” may lead to recriminialization. AGAIN.

    My current opinion is “VOTE NO to Prop. 19.” Convince me otherwise (8 excuses did nothing for me).

  21. We’re one step closer to ending cannabis prohibition and the unjust laws that lock people up for cannabis while alcohol is not only sold openly but advertised on television to kids every day,

    It should be plenty obvious that the BIG corporations & in particular Alcohol & the Drug Companies are funding the fight to keep Marijuana from being legalized . The reason Marijuana is a schedule one drug & illegal in the first place is because of the BIG corporations . They run this Country . War is started because their is money in it for Corporations & the Government Contractors .There was no reason to go into Iraq except for money . Death & injuries create money for the trillion dollar DRUG companies.

    If Marijuana was legalized there would undoubtably be a reduction in terrorism . Terrorists abroad grow Marijuana & sell it to fund terrorism against other Countries . There would be a dramatic decline of murders South of the border if Marijuana was
    legalized . More dclines would be in Pharmaceuticals , cotton ,alcoholic beverages , criminal activity , tobacco , oil , paper production & in war . There are many Corporations not mentioned that profit substantially from Marijuana being illegal.
    If Marijuana was legalized these Corporations would take a BIG hit . Their profits reduced .
    These BIG corporations run this Country & now i explained to you why Marijuana is illegal & whose spending millions in a futile attempt to defeat Proposition 19 in California .

    As far as acres & acres being used to grow Marijuana….well , that’s even benefits people . That creates oxygen helping to stop our depleting ozone levels on Earth . A plant that grows six ‘ or even seven ‘ feet in just a few months and is renewable .

    -$7.7 billion in government expenditures for prohibition enforcement would become free.
    sub total= ~ $14 billion annually to gain-estimated $6.2 billion gained annually if taxed like tobacco or alcohol & this is only part of the benefits of Marijuana legalization .

  22. @rs

    So, your reasoning for keeping marijuana criminalized is because it might become re-criminalized?

    Brilliant.

  23. Just another ploy by Babylon, they won’t be able to keep this spiel up for long. By the way, I don’t give a shit about your kids or what they grow up to be; there is nothing I can do to change the future. Just thought you should know.

  24. What about the latest popular ploy, ‘Save the children from legal marijuana’? Bill O’Reilly used it. California Sen Dianne Feinstein (Dem) claimed that she was trying to ‘Save the Children’ when she recently pushed her bill to double the penalty imposed on anybody that adds marijuana to food and beverages. I’m seeing and hearing that claim more and more lately. Scary to think that it might influence uninformed and gullible voters.

  25. The whole medical thing in California is quasi-legal. The storefronts may be legal, but the growers are operating in a gray area. Prop 19 needs to pass in California to legitimize/tax and control the supply side in both the medical and recreational markets.

    If California does not pass this, sure people will still get their weed, but the current ‘wildcat’ manufacturing and distribution systems might undermine the whole movement in the future. Wildcat growers will continue to destroy forest land. And California will have ‘legal’ pot (read: medical cards) but will be missing out on all the money collected from the wholesale end. These 8 talking points are too late. 215 changed all that California. The cat is out of the bag already. Prop 19 finally controls cannabis and makes it part of the above ground economy.

  26. @rs,
    So you think this might not work so your solution is to try NOTHING? Keep status quo, keep ruining lives,keep stripping our freedoms in the name of a policy that DOES NOT WORK ! Come on man!You can do better than that…

    Besides, the rest of the states WILL be supplied, with or without Prop 19. The cartels will be sure of that.

  27. Arguments against cannabis on the basis of children are rather disingenuous. Many other substances are even worse, such as cough syrup and other medicines left lying around in reach of little hands. An overdose of acetaminophen (Tylenol) is easily achieved and can devastate the liver. Aspirin is also easy to overdose upon. It is impossible to overdose on cannabis. No one will deny that weed is of greater concern than tobacco, but it is of less concern than alcohol, pills or cough syrup.

  28. Re #13

    I dig everything you say, pal. Everything that is, except that it took two J’s to get stoned in the ’60s. I’m here to tell you that the Thai stix in the ’60s, ’70s was as good as anything I’ve smoked today–and I’ve been to A-Dam twice. Also smoked some Hawaiian Sensi in the ’70s–one hit–out of a pin joint–and you were staring at the wall. Thing about A-Dam, it’s much cheaper, because it’s legal. (Taxed & Regulated & Cheaper!)

    It wasn’t all schwag back in the ’60s & ’70s. In fact, for a while in the ’70s in my city, Columbo was easier to get than anything else.

  29. “I’m Reviewing The Situation” (c) 2010 Paul L. Cooper

    Of course we want to end prohibition, but a lawyer has brought out some important points to consider.
    Right now, with a medical certificate, one can possess and grow as much as one needs for their purposes, and no one can stop them. Not the legislature, nor the governor, not the police, municipalities, courts, judges, NOBODY. It is the law because it was passed by a people’s proposition, and cannot be trumped- EXCEPT unless modified by another proposition by the people.
    Proposition 19 may be that wolf in a sheep’s clothing, sneaking in wording that turns each municipality into the arbiter of what when where and how. Every small town can, and will take under control what they can’t touch now, and will regulate control & tax cannabis out of existence. They will make new felonies out of what is now perfectly legal. They can’t do that now, but those dedicated to eliminating the freedoms gained will quickly shut down with this end run any semblance of medical marijuana facilities as we’ve come to know them, and courts and judges will legislate them out of existence. They will not give up till every town rules them into oblivion.
    So, by promising that those over 21 will no longer face prosecution for up to an ounce, and be able to grow in a 5 by 5 space, they will get you to vote for something that gives them the power to say “Yes, but not in this town” and, “All shops must close”.
    Right now, if a 20 year old has his med papers, he can buy what he needs with no fear of retribution. With prop 19- the dispensary who sells it faces prosecution for a felony for selling to someone under 21.
    I think we better think this out again. Without the assurances of complete legalization, we risk to give up perfect and never see it again.
    All one needs to do now is see a doctor, and for $35 to $150 a year, they can possess and grow as much as they want. No limits. The prop 19 says you retain those rights, but interpretation of wording will surely flip that around, you will lose it all.
    I’m not positive yet about this, until I am sure, I cannot support prop 19. My suggestion is for everybody to get a darn Doctor’s note, consider the expense as insurance, and you have perfect legalization- no control, no regulations, no taxes. Pay the darn Doctor fee. It gives you the freedom of complete, untouchable legalization.
    If prop 19 passes with the trick words written into it by law enforcement, these freedoms will evaporate.
    If one is too lazy or complacent to get a Doctor’s note, they will risk persecution. Not good, but they should learn the importance of having that legal document. An educational campaign may be better than a new prop.
    Modifying the prop by another strangely worded prop opens a door that is now closed to any ruling party to weigh in, dominate, and eliminate your hard won freedom.
    We have it now, perfect with a med certificate.
    You risk to lose it all with a flimsy promise of protection from arrest for those too complacent to get their note.
    I invite any and all to discuss this here, especially lawyers familiar with the wording of this proposition.
    What do we risk, trying to improve upon perfect?
    Thank you

    [Editor’s note: You can’t claim to favor ending cannabis prohibition in California and vote against Prop. 19. It is not possible. It is like claiming to enjoy swimming while drowning.

    Whomever you’re fronting for, “a lawyer…”, either can’t read or is purposefully misleading their reading audience as Prop. 19 does not alter or amend ANY aspect of the California Health and Safety code pertaining to the use of cannabis for medical purposes.

    Also, your interpretation of Prop. 215 and SB 420 is totally incorrect as lawful medical cannabis patients can’t grow and possess all that they want. Talk to a lawyer affiliated with NORML, ASA or the ACLU to get a clue.

    You’re so far off in accurately portraying Prop 19 and the current medical cannabis laws in CA, you’re post reads like either a greedy ‘medical’ cannabis seller trying to keep the gravy train stopping at your front door or a law enforcement narc playing the role of agent provocateur trying to split an otherwise unified and focused LEGALIZATION movement.

    You may want to lie about a medical condition to get a legal excuse to use cannabis, but that is absolutely no reason to oppose the most important cannabis legalization initiative in your lifetime.]

  30. 8. The federal government will pull all of its contracts with California businesses because they won’t be able to drug test employees! Hooray!

    7. Legalizing marijuana for healthy people will end medical marijuana for sick people! So WHAT!

    6. Legalizing marijuana will never raise any money because the social costs would outweigh any fiscal benefits… look at alcohol and tobacco! LIE MMJ is harmless!

    5. Big Tobacco will buy up great huge tracts of land in Northern California and mass produce lousy joints pumped full of toxic addictive chemicals! Thats probably correct,they try to kill as many as they can!

    4. Today’s pot is fourteen times more powerful than Sixties weed and will lead to more crack babies! How dumb! only retards would believe that!

    3. People who smoke marijuana in the same apartment building as a child will be arrested! (Not that your landlord will let you grow pot anyway.) Who knows?

    2. Legally home-grown marijuana will lead to outbreaks of toxic deadly molds! Ha ha now I have heard it all who would believe mold is connected to pot?

    1. Workplaces would be overrun by workers smoking marijuana on the job! Not if a NO SMOKING policy was in effect!
    Those are the dumbest excuses yet no one believes any of it.
    Webmaster’
    http://zuerst1.com has a NORML link on it!

  31. @Lou

    As said, I live in Georgia and herb is illegal. Even the simplest possession will get you arrested, ruin your career, etc. We don’t have the luxury of a medical marijuana card. With things going as well as they have been (Thanks to the voters of California), and as the medical marijuana movement quietly spreads across the U.S., it is hard for those of us in other states (where marijuana is illegal) to understand why California would want to jeopardize the whole medical marijuana movement in favor of something that may have unforeseen consequences. And so I ask again, if you’re in California and you want to consume then why not get card?

    @freedom

    Again, for those of us in states where absolute prohibition is the law.. it seems hard for us to understand what about medical marijuana is not working. Again, I don’t understand what the objection is to getting a card.

    Thanks!

  32. Hi Paul, and thanks for your great editor’s reply, best laugh I’ve had in a long time. Sorry to disappoint you, I’m not a narc, nor agent provocateur, nor a front for a lawyer, nor a dealer nor do I have any financial interest whatsoever in the pot business. I’m just a guy who’s been smoking longer than you’ve been alive. To me it’s my culture, religion, my life. I came to this Norml site seeking scholarly advise on my concerns, and somehow you think that is reason to insult, abuse, and ridicule my questions. I did not seek a non lawyer who admits he didn’t go to college, but somehow ended up on your thread. I am proud that my few words provoked such a hostile reaction, please recuse yourself, you have denigrated a serious discussion seeking clarification, your harassment has been noted. Since this is a Norml site, not yours, I will continue, because now is the time to analyze and dissect the implications of prop 19, despite your bullying. Let intelligent people weigh in, I am hoping to once again go back to full scale endorsement of prop 19. btw, yes I can read.
    I am still concerned that if 2 people read the same thing, they may interpret it in 2 different ways. The title of this prop is not ‘Legalization”, but “Control, Regulate, Tax”. I neither control, nor regulate or tax anything, these are powers in the hands of people who have shown a zeal to interpret in their interests, regardless of how I may see things. The LA city council, for example, disregarding the passionate, well thought out pleas of Lawyers, citizens, and wheel chair bound patients, maybe 500 or so testimonials, passed rules that ran dispensaries out of town. Courts will test if the 1000 foot rule from even a child care facility are valid, but de facto, many stores were closed. I lost 2 of them within walking distance of my residence, and even if courts overturn the city council’s decision, they will not be reimbursed for their losses in closing, and I can’t bet on their return.
    btw, I am just an old guy with no business interests of any kind, please do not confuse me as someone trying to protect a money making operation. I am a musician, artist, poet, and by definition unemployed. 😉 Irrelevant, but just so you know. I will miss my favorite local dispensary, they were very kind, and the LA city council has shown they care nothing about me or the hardship they cause.
    This prop is titled “Control, Regulate, Tax”. I do not wish to be controlled, regulated, or taxed. I want legalization, an end to prohibition. I have suffered and paid my dues for a lifetime, and those same people who have ruined my life many times now wish to be back in control. They will interpret the wording in any way they can gain an advantage, impose their never ending power trip regardless of my desires, they just don’t quit, and will never give up. Why would I vote for something clearly marked control, regulate, tax, when what I want is an end to persecution, not a new empowerment to every last one of them to find ways to do an end run around prop 215. They are in control, not me, and they have shown they do not care. They want control back that they lost with prop 215, and can only do it with another prop.

    I would almost prefer to see a mobile service, like ice cream trucks, zig zagging up and down every street with a doctor in back, issuing certificates to every citizen who wants one. When every person who desires has a Dr’s note, you have de facto legalization. No control, no regulation, no taxes. It’s almost that simple to get a certificate now.
    Why is it the pot smokers who are picked to solve the state’s fiscal crisis? Leave us alone, taxes should be shared equally, fair is fair. To win over soccer moms they still paint it like a sin tax, and they will gouge us. Patently unfair, especially after having spent all of my lifetime being harassed and jailed. Now those same people want to be buddy buddy, embrace me, then consume me. Like a pimp who says, “I’m your friend and protector, now get back on the streets and get to work”.
    At the same time, I would hate to derail anything, even an incremental step, that leads to a progressive resolution, an end to this war. The goal is ending prohibition, not control, not regulation, and not taxing.
    I foresee many possible scenarios for a new nightmare. Like children being removed from a home by CPS because someone was turned in by a jealous ex-wife or nasty neighbor for smoking somewhere in the same house.
    Look, I would not have gotten through high school without the help of this non toxic relaxant to ease my stress. This prop makes it a felony to supply a 20 year old.

    At 17 years old, I had to miss Woodstock because I was in juvenile prison for possession of a small amount of hash. I told you I’m old school. Why are we so willing to sell out the ‘under 21’s’? If it’s good for you, it’s good for everybody. I do not need to point out the non toxicity, nor refute the lies about it being de-motivational. I have become the best in the world at what I do, and created great things constantly. I feel pot has protected me from all sorts of diseases that have felled my contemporaries. It is positive and good. Not the Devil’s weed, and I’m sure I do not need to be preaching to the choir here, we are on the same page. On this we are unified.
    But different people can read the same thing and come up with different interpretations, and it ‘can and will’ be used against us.
    I do not feel reassured by anything titled “Control, Regulate, Tax”, and have no trust whatsoever in those who will be in charge of that. Every last little fiefdom in California will find some way to use this new prop as a way to amend 215, of this I am sure, despite your assurances to the contrary.
    I will need to investigate more, and seek legal scholars with experience in court precedence to guarantee that we are not throwing proven, untouchable legalization through medical certificates down the drain, and re-empowering those who never quit seeking to impose themselves in controlling, regulating, and taxing what I chose to do with my life, and what I consume.
    I would love to ‘get to the promised land’, and will mobilize my forces once again when I am convinced. As of now, I still think it’s an end run to overturn a perfectly good, untouchable, people’s prop, just look at the name. I’d love to be wrong, and am open and seeking all info, this is the time for discussion. Not before, not after, now.
    Thank you

    [Editor’s note: Thanks for all the excessive words to relate this simple truth: You’re a selfish individual, with no vision or moxie, who is happy to lie to achieve what you want, even if it means your fellow brothers and sisters (who don’t choose to lie or go to ‘Doc Pots in a Box’) are arrested in mass for the ‘crime’ of non-medical use.

    Hard to know who is worse for personal freedom and legalization, anti-cannabis groups, cops, the drug czar or you? Probably you, because at least society knows what the drug czar’s defect is or can identify an anti-cannabis group’s bias. Your defect and bias is harder to detect because you pretend to support legalization and broadcast your ‘just say yes to medical cannabis only’ propaganda on pro-legalization blogs.

    You may or may not be an agent provocateur, but you certainly represent a ‘fifth column’, and supporters of genuine cannabis law reform will need to be on guard against this small, but highly divisive (and often entrenched in either black market or ‘medical’ cannabis cultivation or sales) group of pseudo-reformers who favor arrests, drug testing, license suspensions, children being removed from the home and the freedom-crushing power of law enforcement to allow them to keep growing/selling cannabis for prices far, far, far above fair market prices as long as they claim they’re doing so for ‘medicinal’ purposes.

    It should be self-evident to all that those who favor cannabis prohibition to continue with exemptions for medical use-only are not really friends to cannabis consumers, individual freedom and the free market.]

  33. Re: #32 & #35

    Why do I get the feeling you two posters are one in the same?

    You “both” are pro-medical MJ, but anti-Prop 19. Pretty selfish of you, I’d say.

    As far as your freaked-out freakiness about being “controlled, regulated and taxed”–geez, get a grip. If it wasn’t for “control, regulation and taxes” you’d have to worry every time you opened a can of corn whether or not you were going to get a case of botulism. Same thing with booze; same thing with nearly everything: meat, poultry, etc. That big egg botulism case–that was a private company–what happens when there’s no govt “controlling, regulating and taxing?” You’d have to worry about botulism every time you cracked an egg–from anywhere. Or anything else you ate.

    A recent survey showed that an ounce, currently going for $300 to $450, would drop to $38 for the same OZ after Prop 19! So, yes, I think I’d pay the tax and get the same Oz for $40. Apparently you think we–those of us who don’t have Med MJ card–should keep paying $300-450 for an Oz.

    You Uber-libertarians never fail to amaze me. Greedy and selfish to the end.

    PS–in Amsterdam (and most other Dutch cities), where MJ is “controlled, regulated and taxed,” you can get any type of MJ or hash you want, and you can get it cheap!!!! (I just wonder if Holland had uber-libertarians like you, who fought against legalization for the same idiotic reasons.) Don’t mean to be so harsh–but I’m sick of this crap.

  34. 36 Longtime Puffer

    Hey Puff – ya! the price to the consummer would drop drastically if tobacco gets its greedy little fingers in it. The only problem is that they tend to put addictives in their product. Don’t lauugh – they’re buying lots of land in Northern California, and they ain’t gonna grow tobacco.

  35. Hey there, Rebel,

    Well, then we’ll just have to buy from their competitors–the ones who don’t use additives. Yes?

  36. Rebel
    PPS–I smoked some primo, pure stuff in A-Dam. Wonder how the tobacco companies managed to miss out on that lucrative market?

  37. 39. Longtime Puffer

    Hey Puff – We do have something in common we wish we could share with the rest of the world – we’ve smoked the best shit in the world. Here’s the thing – we’re better off healthwise after consuming it than we were before we consumed it. How does the prohibitionists explain that? It’s like this – how can you tell me what chinese foor tastes like if you’ve never eaten chinese food. Prohibs can tell you this – what it’s like to be a hipocrit – bless their pointed little heads.

    Good question – how did they miss that? unless you don’t fuck with the Dutch. Yes I’m 1/4 Dutch and damned proud of it!

  38. Rebel,

    Lol, I like your post. Have you ever been to the big “A”? You’d love it out there my man. Wish I could talk my wife into moving out there.

    It was a strange feeling to be able to walk out in public with a J, or sit at a table on the sidewalk outside a shop and enjoy. Couldn’t get over that “paranoid” feeling from all the decades of having to hide it.

  39. 41 Longtime puffer

    Ya! I love the cafes in A. I don’t particularly enjoy the hard drug bodies in the parks – but – at least they have good rehab for them [Harm Redution]. I’m sure you would enjoy living there – it’s a socialist society.

  40. Rebel,
    LOL, good one. I WOULD love living there–what part of their socialism disturbs you? It couldn’t be the clean streets and neighborhoods, could it? The lack of slums, perhaps? The absence of homeless? I thought it was pretty nice to walk around a city that didn’t have any of that.

    We saw a protest involving 250,000 people on our first visit–it had to do with raising the wages of the transportation drivers–yet we DIDN’T SEE ONE SINGLE LINE OF RIOT POLICE!! Not one. Can you imagine a protest of a quarter-million people in the US not being accompanied by lines of cops in riot gear? I can’t. You call that freedom? I sure felt a heck of a lot freer in that “socialist” country than I ever did in the good ol’ USA.

    Their “socialism” isn’t all that different than ours. They provide better services for their citizens in health care and education. Hint, they make the billionaires and super rich pay more than we do. What part of their socialism do you find so distasteful? And please don’t say freedom of speech–they have every freedom that we do. I saw newspapers of every shade in newstands there, including American newspapers and magagines.

    BTW, in which parks did you see “hard drug bodies”? We walked all over that city during both of our trips–never saw “hard drug bodies” in any of the parks. In which parks did you see that?

    I hope you’re not going by the old conservative, prohibitionist warnings about “dirty, evil” Amsterdam. Before our first visit, we were told by conservative friends about how dirty and dangerous the place was. Never saw anything resembling that (though I’ve heard stories about walking around the Red Light District at night, drunk and alone.) Apparently the city used to be that way back in the 1970s–but, if that’s so, it’s changed completely. Clean, beautiful city. You wouldn’t even spot most of the “coffee shops” unless you looked hard for them; most of ’em blend in with the neighborhoods.

    Rebel, have you been there; if yes, have you been there lately?

  41. 43 Longtime Puffer

    I personally don’t have a problem with soicalism. In some of our previous discussions, you had such strong feelings about it, I just thought to myself – Puffer would feel comfortable living there. My feeling is that “Your reality is yours.” My reality is that I’m a
    kick ass American – “Don’t tread on me.” -and – I can’t get that from socialism. As you said – We can agree on the marvels of cannabis though.

    I was there long ago – and – your not the only one who has said that it has changed. I’m glad to hear that. You ask – what park? It was by water – and – I was – shall we say – stoned – not really caring where I was.
    It was still great.

    Well I hope you get there soon. I recognize your passion, and I respect it.

  42. Rebel,

    Thanks for the cordial reply.

    Sorry if I sort of went off on you. I suppose I don’t care to be “labeled.” As I’ve said before, I’ve never thought of myself as a “socialist” per se, but instead as a liberal, or, to use the new vernacular, progressive. As far as my “strong” socialist leanings–I don’t see anything especially socialistic about them, unless you include support for Social Security, Medicare and universal health coverage. If that makes me a raving socialist, so be it.

    I only bring up socialistic Amsterdam as a way to try to snap some of those who seem repulsed by the idea back into reality. I read so many anti-socialism comments on this board, that I try, in my own way, to get people to understand that Holland’s socialism isn’t that different from our own. But it often seems that it’s the very word, itself, that drives conservatives and some libertarians nuts–even if they themselves benefit from social programs.

    And yes, I would feel VERY comfortable there. The main differences, besides the legal MJ smoking, is the healthier and happier way of life. The people in that city just seemed happier and more content than what I see here. (When I went back to my job after my second visit, I was amazed at how depressed so many of my co-workers suddenly looked.) I suppose if I could go into a coffee shop anytime and pick from column A and column B, I’d feel differently, too. (Come on California!)

    Again, Rebel, sorry if I kind of went off–after I posted it, I’d wished I’d toned it down. You’re a good guy,and you deserve the respect you always show.

    Anyway, thanks for the last comment–one of these days, if I can just talk the wife into it…

    Best always

  43. How would i be included in the prop. 19 polls? I am for it and would love to show support, as well as some other people i know. I would love to get that 50% higher.

  44. 47 LongTime Puffer

    I was raised a Eisenhauer Republican. I was born before penecilin was a wonder drug. For as far back as I can remember – it was drilled into our heads to never argue about politics or religon. So! I’ve lived through every kind of politics that have ruled this country – including Roosevelt, Truman, Carter,
    Clinton , and now Obama – the Populist boys [Progressives]. Just to set the record straight I’m not a Republican, or a Democrat. I’m an Independent – more specifically an Individualist, and a damned hard line Constitutional Conservative. In other words – if one attempts to relieve me of my freedom, one also attempts to commit suicide. The reason I say that so boldly is that prohibs/obstructionists are attempting to deny me my Constitutional right to medicinal and religious use of cannabis. I think you know I’m in California, and will soon be free of all that miasma, but my country is in danger, and fight goes on. I don’t mind a war on drugs, but they made a big mistake when they dclared war on cannabis – BIG! BIG! BIG!

    Anyway – bets to ya! I hope the kids and the family are well.

  45. Rebel,

    Well you’ve said it before, and it’s true–the one thing we have in common is our choice of MJ. I am glad that you feel the same way I do about billy-bud. That makes us allies in my book, our other politics notwithstanding.

    I envy your Californian citizenship; lived there myself nearly ten years. I have told my wife that if the Golden State does pass prop 19, we won’t have to go to A-Dam. LOL.

    I’m hoping so badly it gets passed.

    Toke one for me. I’m cold-turkey right now; still at my job, but starting to look for another. Friggin drug tests.

    Best always

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